Service Based Business Society Podcast

Season 1
Episode 18
Title: Clear not clever:copywriting

Hello and welcome to the service based business society podcast. I'm your host, Tiffany-Ann. Our weekly episodes we will dig into everything you need to know about scaling your service based business without losing sleep. With my experience in creating over seven figures per month, and a passion for marketing, finance and automation, this show will provide tangible tips and techniques for scaling your business.

Let's get started. Hey guys, welcome back to the show. Today we're talking about copywriting. So if you tuned in last week, you know that we have our ongoing SEO series, and that will continue next week. But this week, we have a very special guest Nicole Capek, Nicola has been a copywriter for 20 years, and she focuses on clear conversational copy that attracts all ready to invest clients.

So welcome to the show, Nicole.

Nicole:
I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me,

Tiffany:
Often to a business owner, the thought process of copy copywriting is all fairly new. It's a new concept. But in actual fact, it's not. It's just the word copywriting and copy is new. So tell me a little bit about how you got into being a copywriting expert.

Nicole:
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of by accident. I went to school for journalism. So I majored in journalism and the newspaper magazine stream. So that was the route I was gonna go just because I love writing. But then journalism is also about interviewing and getting the scoop and being first to the scene, like all these things like that. And I was like, No, but I just loved the writing. And then after I graduated, I think I had planned on looking for a job in journalism. But then somebody told me about an opening and a company where they needed a copywriter.

So that's where I went, I took that direction. So still writing but more persuasive writing. Yeah, so that was for a fitness company. And I stayed with that company for about seven years writing, ad copy and advertorials, and lots of things with hype about weight loss and muscle building and all that good stuff. And then, yeah, and then lots of other things after that, but that's how I got into copywriting.

Tiffany:
Interesting, yes. So I would think it would be still that still, that writing fills that writing passion, but just from a different angle. So to someone who doesn't know what copywriting is, or the word coffee is new, how would you describe that?

Nicole:
I would just say like really simply, it is just words to promote your business and words with the intent of persuading. So you're trying to get your readers to take a specific action. And usually that action is to buy something, you want them to buy your course, or your programs, service, whatever. But sometimes it's not buying, sometimes it's like signing up for your freebie or applying for a program, whatever it might be. But it's always with the goal of getting your readers to not only read your content, but then to take that next step and work with you or whatever it might be. So it's really about being a bit more persuasive. And you know, that's where people sometimes get stuck because they think it has to be super salesy, or in your face or pushy, but it really isn't, you can write it in a way that gets people excited to take that next step without being over the top.

Tiffany:
I think it's really an often underestimated part of the business journey, especially when setting up a business. You know, we often think, okay, we need a logo, we need brand colors, we need a website, we need all of these things. But we don't want to think about the tax that's on the website until you know, you've got this website. And you know, it might be your brand colors, and you've got some pictures, and you're you've but now especially if you're working off a template, you have like these sections that you have to fill. Yeah, well, what just go in here.

Exactly. And I, it is almost more important. I think you could argue it's more important than a lot of the aspects that we put so much thought into the pictures and the colors and all these pieces. But what are we actually saying? What is the message here?
Nicole:
Yeah, that's exactly it. Your messaging has to be super clear. And I love design, like I've worked with designers, my whole career, I love branding, design, all those things. But you're right, a lot of times people, like even in my own experience, I know that people will hire a designer first because it's just so obvious. I needed a designer, especially if you're getting a website done, I needed a branding expert, I need a designer. So most of my clients will come to me and they already have the designer in place. And they've gone into it thinking I'll just write my own copy or like maybe it doesn't even come across their minds. And then they come, then they start writing the copy themselves and think, Oh, this is actually harder than I thought or it's challenging writing about your own self or your own brand. Like that's a whole other thing.

So yeah, typically people have the design already established and then they realize wait, the messaging is just important too.

Tiffany:
Yes, and the messaging needs to be consistent across so many different places. And so you've got this website that needs to have this messaging. And now depending on the different business, you've got all these different social media platforms and, and so you've got some messaging there. And then you know, you've got emails or, you know, maybe a brochure or business card, these types of things. And so realistically, you, you have this piece, and as much as people think, oh, font color and whatnot, there's also this super key aspect, and that is consistency in the messaging across, you know, what is the messaging for the business? What is our, our tone of voice? What is our feel, it's really about a feel,

Nicole:
yeah, I was just gonna say, tone of voice is so important, because you can't have it super formal in one place. And then really casual and you know, relatable somewhere else, it has to be consistent across the board. And to your point, too, you have to have the same messaging, because if you're, if you're spouting so many different messages, on so many different platforms, your readers are going to be confused, they're going to be like, What are you about? And what am I supposed to do next? So they'll just bounce off the page or go somewhere else?

Tiffany:
So now when you say, What am I supposed to do next? And that is so you know, that really comes back to that customer journey? And everyone, you know, business is set up differently. But often it is okay, so I want to work with you. But how, how, what is that next? What is that next piece?

Nicole:
Yeah, well, and I think it even starts with people not being afraid to sell themselves. So to actually talk about your services, and what you do, because sometimes we get so fearful of being too in your face, or whatever. So we just kind of, we provide lots of value, but then we don't all always sell our services. And we have to remember that not everybody is reading every single piece of content we create. So if you're only talking about your services, like once every seven social media posts, then, you know, I think you need to embrace that. Just for awareness,

Tiffany:
I think that there's two pieces to it on social media. Specifically, you feel like you have to be completely ready before you want to share with, like on your social media, because you've got friends and family and you know, that uncle that said the business was a bad idea. So, you know, it's, I think the sooner as an entrepreneur, you can get to the fact that social media truly is a tool. And you know, you are creating content for your business and you're using the tool of social media and and forget about that uncle and you know, your grammar and all these things.

Because realistically, the people, they may or may not support you, sometimes your family is your biggest fan. And sometimes they really don't. And I think oftentimes in that journey, people get almost disappointed that their family isn't supporting that journey. You know, it's like, well, I was posting and they weren't sharing, or they were in. And so you kind of get over that disappointment and carry on. So it's a different mindset. You know, it's sharing, authentically, and being willing to say, Hey, I'm running a business.

Nicole:
Yeah, absolutely. And like the word mindset to, like so much about running a business is mindset. That's what I've really learned that you can have all the tips and strategies in the world. But if your mindset is off, like, I know, that sounds really woowoo, but I totally believe that. And yeah, the whole family thing. Like, it's funny, because I am mostly on Instagram, which I never thought I would be. So my business posts are mostly on Instagram, and I reserved Facebook for, you know, the family stuff. But I know I need to get better at integrating my business there. But then I think of my Uncle Mike and I think of you know, just random people from high school and then I don't know, it's just weird. But yeah, to your point, you have to get over that at some point. And just, they're not your target audience anyways, like your uncle Mike is not going to hire you for branding or copywriting.

Tiffany:
So I think that is so that that is such a key piece if they are not your specific audience. And so you know, this, they might not understand the challenge you're solving in your business, they might not have ever experienced the need for what you're selling. And so when they're like, hey, like, what are you? This isn't gonna work? This is crazy. You need to go back and get a job. You want to get nine to five jobs.

Yeah, yeah, it's really their mindset. And so if you are kind of going through that, that different transition, and whatnot, I always say, you know, you have to be willing to, you know, stand on the rooftops and say, Hey, I'm running a business, because you never know who is, you know, that ideal audience. That doesn't mean you need to be, you know, sending DMS to everyone in your family, and, you know, that I could, I think there's this, you know, share and if people don't like it, then they might not follow you. But hey, social media is your tool, especially if you're doing online marketing to get in front of the right people, so some people might, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Nicole:
And it's, it's free advertising too, right. And you don't know where your clients are gonna come from. So that person who's following you, they may not hire you, but they may recommend you to somebody else. So again, if you're not advertising yourself, then you'll never know you'll never get those clients. So yeah, you have to be out there.

Tiffany:
Absolutely. So how do you help someone find their tone of voice? How do you know where to go from? Okay, I have a business. I serve, you know, this specific audience. But how do you help someone hone in on what kind of messaging and what tone of voice?

Nicole:
Well, yeah, well, I just know that when I'm specifically writing for a client, I will speak to them, I will talk to them to get a sense of their personality, their values, their interests, I'll get a sense of their target audience too. Because if their target audience is really buttoned down, then you're going to want to have coffee that's more buttoned down and formal, too. But if they are super laid back and super friendly, extroverted, then you're going to want to have coffee that matches that. So a lot of it is really just based around the personality of you and your readers so that there's a good connection there.

Tiffany:
Yes, it's interesting, the different read really vibes that you can get from someone when they are more reserved or conservative, versus someone who's a little more outward and spunky. And, and, you know, I think that a lot of it's interesting. I've noticed a trend more recently, even in book titles, marketing, where, you know, it seems to be more appropriate to use curse words. And I think that maybe 10 years ago, that would not have been the case. And so it almost was like, it's the shock and awe factor. To me, it's like, wow, we couldn't get the same shock and awe anymore. So we leveled up. And now we're doing it this way. So, you know, what are your thoughts on that?

nicole:
I mean, as long as it matches who you are, as long as it's authentic, right? Like for me to do that. I like I can't, I like having fun, cheeky copy, but I'm not swearing in every other word. Like it just wouldn't match who I am. And maybe my readers too. So I think as long as it's not just done for that shock factor, like it has to be authentic. Yeah, but definitely, I see. Definitely a trend, not so much a trend, but definitely conversational copy, more relatable, more human. You know, less formal, less text buggy, because I mean, we're all people, people serving people. So the copy should feel like that.

Tiffany:
Yeah, I really have enjoyed the shift into more conversational AI. There's quite a few different emails, you know, the email newsletters and things that I get, and some, there's quite a few copywriters out there that have really nailed the conversation. Oh, where are you? You look forward to actually, you know, reading the email, it's a lot more than Hey, I have this, this, you know, program going on? It's $500.

Nicole:Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. And probably what you're seeing is a lot of story based copy to write emails with stories, where you're not just learning about the services or the products, you're learning about the person behind the business and the brand to so when you know, when you're sending an email, you can share funny stories, and you know, they can still have a tie in to what you're talking about to the business. But stories are great for that. And like you said, the language, the conversational tone, it all goes together. So yeah, they're not just like corporate emails, like he used to say, when you're in the nine to five world.

Tiffany:
So when you're setting up a new business, if we go back to that example, where we have this new business, and we're honing in on the messaging and whatnot, you know, if you if you pop into Google or Pinterest, and you say, you know, what kind of copy do I need for my new business? There is an extensive list of things that you could write, you know, we've got all these different email sequences and different posts that go to a new email sequence and whatnot. If someone's just starting out, what do you recommend? Where do they need to start? Well,

Nicole:
I do think website copy is really important. Because that's, you know, that's your digital home. That's, you know, that copy that copy is the content for your business, the content hub. So I would definitely say website copy. And that copy can actually be repurposed for other things, too. So if you get that foundation, right, you can, you can borrow the messaging, borrow the tone and use it anywhere else, social media, emails everywhere else sales pages. Yeah. So I would probably start with website copy.

Email Copy is really important, too. And so I would say if somebody is looking to add people to their email list, get a welcome sequence in place of, you know, five emails, four or five emails that are evergreen. So you write them in advance, and then every time somebody new joins your email list, they get that sequence. It's all queued up, so you're not having to write a new sequence every time so once you just get it written, it's going to work for you for months, so right and it's a great way to welcome your new subscribers and really make them feel special.

Tiffany:
Right. And so just to kind of dive in, because I think that there are a lot of times people are writing like a weekly, monthly, however often that is, so you've got your email that goes out to your list. And now we're talking about this welcome sequence. So a person joins the list, and depending on the system, you've got this new subscriber, so you're gonna run those five emails, so they're gonna go out at all different times, depending on when that subscriber joins. So you've got Sam, Sam joins your list, Sam is gonna get those five emails. And then, you know, Bob could join the list two weeks later, and he's gonna get those five emails. So then after that welcome sequence, do you just have them join your main mailing list after that?

Nicole:
Yeah, that's what I do. So once they've gone through that sequence, then they get added to a separate group, essentially, this is ready for weekly newsletters or whatever it is, and then they just get added to the weekly content. So but they all like you said, they all go through that sequence first, right? So those emails are typically sent closer together versus further apart. Because when people first sign up for your list, that's when they're most excited to hear from you. Or, you know, they're top of mind, because they have literally just signed up to hear from you. Right. And then obviously, hopefully, as you continue emailing them, they eagerly anticipate your other emails, too.

Tiffany:
Right. So when you're saying more frequently, how often is too frequent? What is your recommendation on those first five emails?

Nicole:
Yeah, I mean, there's no right or wrong answer. But I think you know, the first one goes out right away, especially if somebody has signed up for a freebie or a checklist or a guide, whatever it is. So you send the first one right away, saying, here's the guide, I promised you so they get the link. And then I'll usually do the next one, next day, and then the next few like either a day or two apart. So they are pretty close together. But again, it's right when you're top of mind.

Tiffany:
So interesting to add in the nurture sequence, because instead of someone picking up in the middle of your emails, you know, you could be writing about whatever you have going on in your business at that time. But doing the nurture sequence ensures that everyone who is on the list has gotten the same bit of information, plus whatever is currently on the go. And so you know that stuff that you feel like, Hey, I don't want to say all the time, but you don't know when did someone join? Did they get that information? Did they not? If it's key, if you want everyone to get that information, then you definitely want that information to go out in the email sequence. Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole:
And it is evergreen content. So you're, you know, in your welcome sequence, you're not going to say, hey, last Christmas or last week, like you're going to keep it very vague, basically, like no specific time references.

Tiffany:
Right. So is there anything that you think absolutely must be in that first welcome sequence?

Nicole:
Yeah, I think it's important to share a bit of your story, because even though copywriting is all about the readers, it's all about them. It should absolutely be about helping them. I think readers will ultimately want to know a bit more about you, as in like, who are you? And how are you qualified to help me and also some personal details to like a bit about why you care so much about what you do. So it's more human, so that there's more of a connection there, you're not just any other copywriter, or any other brand designer, web designer, coach, whatever it may be. So definitely a bit of your story. But like I said, for the most part, your copy is always going to be focused on your readers, how you can help them, how you can make their lives easier or better. Yeah, keeping them focused on them.

Tiffany:
Yes, I think if you could truly convey the transformation that you offer, whether that is, you know, the happiness from purchasing a product or the you know, time savings, or whatever that transformation is that your business offers, the person who can truly describe that transformation in a way that resonates with their audience is always going to have an easier time with that sales process.

Nicole:
Because, you know, obviously, to some extent, you want to talk about their pain points and empathize with the struggles that they're having. But then most of your time, you want to be talking about where they want to be and how you're going to help them get there. So you're, you're showing them what their dream life is going to be like and imagine this and you know, all the things they want to have that they don't currently have now,

Tiffany:
Yes, I was recently in a Facebook group, and there was someone who was sharing some marketing that they had come up with. It was a new program that they were launching, and they were asking for opinions based on the graphic and copy that they had written. And I noticed right away, you know, when people ask for an opinion, but then immediately don't want any of you don't want any of them if they really don't.

Yeah, it was like no, no, I disagree with that. It's okay. So but a lot of people had commented so there was a fitness program of some sorts, which kind of goes back to your route. And it was for busy entrepreneur moms specifically. And so the graphic was a Facebook posts cut into four. So there were four images and it was basically these four different pieces. So one was like it looked like a mom from the 50s with kids hanging off of her. And one was this woman like shoveling food into her mouth. And there was like all these and it really was like pain points specific, but almost to I was like, Ooh, no, it was it was. It didn't look at the transformation, it really looked at where people were. And a lot of the comments were like,

Hey, I already know that that's not good. But that's where I am. And I don't need to see a picture of it. And so, you know, in terms of pain points in that transformation, how far in when you're writing? How far do you think is appropriate? How far do you think is too far, when you're really trying to go in and press on, you know, whatever the person is challenging or struggling or, you know, in marketing referred to as the pain point. So what, how far, how far do you go?

Nicole:
Yeah, I don't know how to quantify that really, like, like I said, you do want to touch on it, because that shows your reader like, hey, they understand me, they understand what I'm going through. So that is really important. But if your copy is just a pain point and struggle bus, then it's almost like your readers are just going to be like, Yeah, this sucks, I'm just going to stay here, like they're going to live in that sadness, or that struggle. But if you turn your words around to say something like you're an action taker, you're ready for something more you like, you know, that great things are coming. So it's more positive, and it's more uplifting and inspiring and exciting. So yes, we've touched on the pain points. But now let's, let's quickly move on to that to the pleasure points, basically,

Tiffany:
Right. So don't dwell. So don't dwell on the negative, but acknowledge that you are aware. And I think that's a relatable piece where you know, and it comes down to that person knows what I'm what I'm dealing with that, you know, and it comes to, you know, oh my goodness, it's like she's talking to me, it's like, this business knows what and I, you know, that's, that's truly when you, in my opinion, nailed the copy is when someone is like, oh, my gosh, you totally know what I'm going through and, and know what we need to do?

Nicole:
Absolutely. That's my favorite compliment. If somebody says it's like you were in my head, because like, especially if you're hiring somebody to write your copy, there's a lot of trust there, because you're trusting that person to represent your brand and to speak in your voice. So I can see why some people would be like, you know, leery about like, oh, well, this still sounds like me. So if your copywriter is able to write in a way where you feel like she's in my head, or he's in your head, then that's the mark of a good copywriter.

Tiffany:
So absolutely. So you know, we talked about the website, copy. I agree, wholeheartedly, you know, that is so important. And what are some of the key pieces that you see if someone was going to go and reevaluate their website? So maybe their businesses are a year old? Maybe it's two years old? So they have an existing website? They have a copy? What's something that you frequently see when you're giving a website a facelift, if you will, and you want to? You want to check in? You know, is it the headlines? Sub headlines? Like, where are you commonly seeing that it's like, hey, we could really tweak this and create a big difference.

Nicole:
Yeah, I mean, most of the copy, I do, like I start from scratch, because either people don't have a website already, or they have a website, but they they say like, it just doesn't sound like me. Or it's, it's from the past, like my business has been elevated. And this still feels like it's behind. But yeah, definitely headlines, headlines are so important. Because a lot of people that are skimmers, they're not gonna, as much as we want them to read everywhere, and they may not read every word.

So just make sure your headlines are really clear versus clever. You know, we all like to be clever, but they need if people have really short attention span, so if they're landing on your website, they read your headlines, but they're still not sure what you do, who you serve, and how you can help them, then yeah, they're just gonna, they're just going to bounce again, because they're just confused, basically. So headlines are a big one.

Tiffany:
Yes. Clear versus clever. I think that is yeah, oh key. Because we almost, especially when we're in the business, and I think often, you know, hiring that outside copywriter, then it's, you're going to ask the questions, hey, like, what are we? What are we doing? It's not necessarily just the, you know, we don't ever want to imply things in marketing things. And so a lot of times, you go through a website, and it's not until three quarters the way down the first page that you're like, Oh, this is what we do. Okay, you know, making sure that it's, you know, what, who is who the website is for and what is the service being offered?

Nicole:
For sure, and also a call to action. So if somebody is reading your website, but then you don't have any button saying, you know, click here to book a call, or whatever your call to action is you need to guide the reader because you don't want them scrolling, scrolling. And then they think, Well, what do I do next? Like, what's the next step for me?

Tiffany:
So you know, the next step, but you can't assume that they do. Even if it seems really obvious, you have to put those called out actions and so when you're adding those in, you know, how many typically are you adding on a homepage.

nicole:
So it can vary, I usually do one right at the very top. So I'll have a main headline. So nice and bold, usually a clear statement, sometimes a question, but the main headline and then all the typically have a call to action button right after it just in case you get somebody who already kind of knows you and they land on your site. And they think, yep, I'm in right away. So click that button, and then it goes to contact pager, services, whatever you want it to be. So I usually have one right away. And then I don't know every couple of paragraphs, usually, and then definitely one at the bottom, too. So again, if somebody is scrolling gets to the bottom, and then it just cueing them, again, to take the next step,

Tiffany:
right, it's almost kind of like that trail of breadcrumbs as like, you know, if you want to, if you want to come down the path, you know, make it easy, don't don't make it difficult for people to work with you.

Nicole:
Yeah, absolutely. And same for sales pages, too, I take that approach, like, definitely have one at the top of your sales page. Again, if people are already in your world, and they already have heard about your course or program, whatever it is you're selling, have one at the very top in case they're ready to buy right away and then have some throughout. But all those call to action buttons are going to the same place on a sales page. They're all going to go to your checkout page or whatever is typically a checkout page. But right, yeah, that's a bit different. Because everything goes to the same page.

Tiffany:
So can you describe the difference between a homepage and a sales page?

Nicole:
Yeah, so the homepage on your website is going to have a few different, you know, small paragraphs, headlines, and they're kind of going to serve as teasers for the rest of your website. So you might have a small paragraph, just saying, Hey, I'm surely or whatever your name is. And then here's a bit about me and how it can help you. And then you'll have a call to action button, and you click on it, and it will take the reader to your about page. So it's just like a little teaser. Similarly, you might have a small section about your services to get people excited about your services. And then they click on to learn about your services.

Whereas your sales page is typically either a signature program course product, or it could be a service, and all the content on that page is going to be about that one thing. And then all the call to action buttons aren't going to again, be one thing. So say if you want them to buy, they're going to click to buy and go to the checkout page. Right. So it's just a bit more focused.

Tiffany:
Right. Okay, so most people would start with that homepage. And then yeah, that was a signature product that gets offered or something specific, then has that sales page.

Nicole:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And some sales pages. I mean, you've got short ones, but you've probably seen like, there are some long long form sales pages. Yeah, so and that's where it's really important to have lots of lots of bullet points and sub heads and headlines, like breaking everything out. Because otherwise your reader is just gonna lapse into a coma or something.

Tiffany:
My very favorite coffee line is when you scroll to the end of, like, a ridiculously long sales page. And it says, you know, if you're like me and scroll to the bottom, I'm going to quickly summarize for you, everything that was above, this is what it cost. This is what's included. And here's the button. Because yeah, I really feel like there's often so much in the middle of that. I mean, I guess everybody buys differently. Everybody needs that different information. And so you want to ensure that each different, you know, type of customer can buy in a way that feels comfortable for them.

Nicole:
Yes, that is so true. Because I don't know if it's just because I'm a copywriter, but I am the person, even if it's only a $27 product, I am reading every single word on that sounds page. So I will do that. But a lot of people will just skim. So by having all that information on the sales page, you kind of serve both people. So serve both groups, you'll you'll serve the people who are just going to scan but then you're also going to serve the people who are gonna read every word,

Tiffany:
right? Yes, yes, and serving both in a way that still feels you know, like it still fits the design aesthetic and it's still you know, flows but in a way that serves both. So if a business owner has one tangible tip from a copywriting standpoint that they could implement today and it would make a difference in their business tomorrow. What would that be?

Nicole:
I would say really look at how specific Your copy is because that can often make the difference between a copy that connects with somebody and does it on an emotional level. So say for example, in your copier saying like buy my product and your life will be happier. That's super vague and it can probably be applied to anything else like so many other things. But if you go specific and really describe Okay, what does happiness mean for my reader? Is it taking Friday's off? Is it being able to travel more often? Is it like what is that thing for your reader? So being super specific is going to make the difference between copy this just kind of like okay, it's there but and copy that's like yes, this describes exactly what my goals are. My dreams are my struggles, whatever it may be. Because you don't want a copy that you could basically copy and paste on to any other person's website. Like if your copy can apply to any other business, then it's not specific enough

Tiffany:
finding what makes your business unique and adding that in and it being your copy versus just copy

Nicole:
what and finding out what really resonates with your readers. So maybe for say, if you're a coach, maybe success in business means money padding your bank account, but maybe for somebody else, that means time freedom, traveling more like just finding out what that is for your readers. Right. And then speaking to that, in your copy, being super specific

Tiffany:
Listeners are listening to this and thinking, Oh, my goodness, I definitely need to work on some copy. Where can they connect with you? What are those next steps?

Nicole:
So my website is Nicole capek.com, my first and last name and then like I said, I am more on Instagram, I need to upgrade my facebook but on Instagram, I met en que copywriting but you can find me on Facebook too. So yeah, those two platforms.

Tiffany:
Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Nicole:
Thank you. Yeah, I always think copy is a silent hero. But again, I am biased. So yeah, there's so many things in business that make a difference, right?

Tiffany:
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