Service Based Business Society Podcast

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
welcome Simon.

Simon:
Hello, hello, how's it going?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
I'm good, how are you doing?

Simon:
Good, good. We're both in Vancouver. You're in Vancouver, right?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah, we're just outside of Vancouver. So nice to have a fellow West coaster. I feel like most people who I talk to are on, you know, either the Eastern side

Simon:
Yeah.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
or, you know, down in the States, but nice to chat with someone on this side.

Simon:
Yeah, I've, um, I also have a podcast, two podcasts. I've probably done over 130 episodes now and I've interviewed maybe eight people in Vancouver

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm.

Simon:
and then the rest of the 120 plus or yeah, all across the U S and Canada. So

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
For sure,

Simon:
always

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
So tell me a little bit about those two podcasts. What are the different topics? What are you covering?

Simon:
Yeah, so my first podcast actually started in 2020 in the beginning of COVID. Currently the CMO of BC jobs and was already the VP of marketing at BC jobs at that time. And obviously when COVID happened in 2020, we couldn't do any more in-person events, right? So we had to think of a strategy to connect with job candidates and companies virtually and I have always been a huge fan of podcasts. Never thought about starting my own podcast, but COVID kind of forced us to transition. And so early 2020, I started my first podcast. It was around the jobs market, interviewing companies that were still hiring, like asking them, are you guys still hiring? What is hiring like? And then just kind of giving tips on the other end of the stick, the candidates, teaching them how to stand out during COVID in a post-pandemic world. And so you're recorded about, I think we got to episode 70-ish, 70 or 80. I think it was 80 actually. And then after two years when COVID slowly ended and went back to normal life, we found that the podcast wasn't as needed anymore and we saw our numbers kind of slowly dwindling down where I think we were at like 2000 downloads per month at that time, but when we started off, we were strong four or 5,000 downloads per month. And so I made the decision, I talked to my team, we're like, maybe we should end it, but we already had all the mic set up, we had the lights, we had everything, camera, and we're like, it would be such a waste to just stop podcasting, and I loved podcasting. And

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
so last year I decided to start my own podcast called Marketing on Mars, and that's where I just interviewed C-suite and founders on my show. We've now... just completed 72 episodes. And it's, yeah, it's been really, really fun so far.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Incredible. I yeah had someone ever told me that I would have a podcast I You know years ago would have just said no way like that's definitely not my space, but I absolutely love it as well So it's and I think it really is, you know having a podcast is definitely a bit of a passion project there's lots of you know different aspects to Starting managing running and continuing to grow that podcast. So you have to enjoy it for sure So

Simon:
Yeah.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
you are no longer doing the podcast with BC jobs, but you're still at BC jobs. Is that correct?

Simon:
Yeah, still there.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yes. Okay. And so for those who aren't on the West Coast side of Canada, do you want to give a short segue of what is BC jobs? How does it tie in? What is it serving? Obviously, there's this piece of talking to people who are still hiring and people who are the actual candidates, but on a broader sense outside of the podcast, what is BC jobs and how does it serve the BC people?

Simon:
Actually, this would be a good test because you're based in Vancouver. What do you

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
think BC jobs do?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Oh,

Simon:
What

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
what

Simon:
do you

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
do

Simon:
think we

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
I think

Simon:
do?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
BC jobs? So in my time at corporate, when I was in corporate, obviously I'm not in the corporate space anymore, but we definitely had some discussions with BC jobs about certain people. And I actually remember being contacted years ago and them saying, hey, we have this person and we're gonna help pay for some of their wages and we're gonna get you started and... you know, at that time it was this, this has gotta be too good to be true, I don't really know what's going on, it must be a scam. She had, you know, we ended up kind of following through the process. We had her for a year, she was an incredible employee. And so I, very minimal knowledge of what all went on and why that took place. Several years ago now, I'm not sure if that's even a program they still offer or how it works, but, you know, my only interaction with the BC Chubs was a good one.

Simon:
That must have been WorkBC though.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Work PC.

Simon:
So those

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Okay,

Simon:
different,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
yeah.

Simon:
there's WorkBC and there's BCJOBS. So WorkBC,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Okay.

Simon:
for those that are local, they are the ones that offer subsidies and they help you hire candidates. BCJOBS, we're like, think Indeed, ZipRecruiter,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Okay,

Simon:
LinkedIn.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
yeah.

Simon:
When you're looking for a job, where do you go first to find a job? And right now in the current climate that we're living in, especially the last three, four years, it's been those big job boards, Indeed.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn. Those are probably the top three. Years ago, maybe Monster.com, if everyone remembers that. That was

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
the big job board of the time. BC Jobs is exactly that. But with a name like BC Jobs, you can imagine very limited to just the Vancouver, BC area. It's a job board, essentially. You post

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Okay.

Simon:
your jobs and you can apply for jobs. Very, very simple. And they've been around for 20 years now. I was part of the recent acquisition. They recently was acquired by a private equity firm. So I was part of that transaction and I came in and started serving as the VP of Marketing. Now I'm currently the CMO there. So that's what BCJOBS does.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Interesting. So, you know, and by adding that, if we, if we kind of talk on a broader sense, by adding the niche of saying, Hey, we're the BC job board, hoping to then filter out, because I think one of the biggest criticisms I hear when people post jobs on Indeed is that they're getting people, you know, from all over the world are applying to these jobs, which is great

Simon:
Mm-hmm.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
if it's a remote job. I truly believe in right person for the job. And on our agency, we, we hire all over the world because it's a remote position. But now you have people who, You know, it's like they're looking for a plumber, they're looking for a carpenter, they're looking for an electrician, and they've got people applying for the other side of the world. This, you know, in a non-digital space, it just doesn't make sense.

Simon:
Yeah, so BC jobs is very good for those types of roles when you have to hire locally. So,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
you know, I don't know your listeners, they might be all over the place. But for the Vancouver listeners, like you'll know Save On Foods, you'll know P&E, you'll know TELUS, you'll know BC Transit. Those are the companies that would they've been on the job board for 15 years because they know that BC jobs will have mostly local candidates. Now for those other tech companies where they can hire anywhere in the world, they can hire in Toronto, LA, Vegas, I don't know why I'm throwing these cities out

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
there, but any city around the world, BC jobs might not be the best for you because you're getting a lot of local talent, but then you're kind of eliminating yourself from the rest of the world. There's a lot of good talent everywhere. Vancouver's not the only place with good talent, but there is a lot of, you know, if you're looking for that in-person, kind of role, you know, carpenter roles, like you mentioned, and like welders, like you're going to be on BC jobs. So we find a lot of those roles are there. But the Vancouver tech scene is growing. And because government fund grants and those kind of programs are so strong in Vancouver, a lot of tech companies still have to hire locally. And BC jobs is the best for that because you can't use your grant to hire a marketing specialist that lives in New York, for example. as good as they are, your grants just won't get you there. So then you have to use a job or like BC jobs. And so we still have a lot of tech companies and maybe we'll can dive into that. I've been running a lot of tech events locally in the city, but yeah, that's essentially what BC jobs does in a nutshell.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Incredible. I think such service such an important market. I don't know a single business owner and not just, you know, in the local space, but I don't know. We focus obviously on service based business owners and hiring good people. will always be the biggest pain point for growth is bringing the right people in,

Simon:
Yeah.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
training them,

Simon:
Yup.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
retaining them. And so you've got this need where business, so if you can invest in new systems, you can hire outsource marketing, you can do all of these different things. But when it comes to actually having the people in your business that your clients wanna deal with and what that is such a specific strategy, and so key. Because you can't just find people and implement them overnight. Actually creating that process of bringing people in training and whatnot is it is a long-term strategy.

Simon:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's all about people. You interview 10 successful people and you ask them, what's your number one tip for success? And probably half of them will say people. It's all about the people. And then the other half will talk about systems because systems are also important. People and systems, if you have those two in place,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
even if you don't have the best product in the world, the most shiny... Object that everyone's gonna gravitate towards even if you don't have the best tech stack Even if you don't have all that going for you, and if you're not like a crazy innovator if you have good team And you have good systems You're probably gonna win there mix that with a great product and a very innovative solution You probably have a very good chance Uh for success. So yeah people is a is a huge part of that and you know yourself tiffany your your business owner and any other business owners listening, they will probably agree with that.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm. So you started talking about some events. Is that kind of post-COVID or you were also doing events pre-COVID? Obviously, no events during COVID, but is that a post-COVID edition, the events?

Simon:
Yeah, so pre-COVID, I was actually very new to the city. I started my career in San Francisco. I've worked for a blockchain company. So I moved around between San Fran, LA, Korea, and Seoul, Korea, and Vancouver a lot. So I never really built my following in Vancouver. Also, I started off as an investment banking analyst. And then I moved over to being a marketer. I was always very analytical. So I spent a lot of time behind the computer. I was always the behind the scenes guy. So if you invited me to events, I most likely would have never attended any events, like I was as

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
far as being an events guy as possible. That's just, just to kind of put, put paint the full picture. Um,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Right.

Simon:
the reason why I got into events and my very, very first event that I ran was last November in my entire life. Uh, And it's, you know, I told you I have a couple of podcasts I had recorded. At that time I had recorded about 90 episodes of podcasts already. And

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Okay.

Simon:
so all I wanted to do was bring a few of the guests that were local in Vancouver and treat them out to a beer to thank them for believing in me in my couple of podcasts that I started. Um, you as a podcast, you know how hard it is to even complete 20 episodes, but

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
to have 90 people support you was it I needed to give back. So. I invited six founders out and selfishly because I also wanted to become a better founder myself. I wanted to surround myself with other better founders. So I just got six founders and we were at Earl's. We

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
had a couple of drinks, you know, Earl's like very, very popular locally. We just got a few beers. I know it was so much fun, but I had plans to go to Korea. So I left for three months. And when I came back, I'm like, I kind of want to do the founder thing again.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
And so I messaged all the six founders and I said, let's do another happy hour. I continued to call it a founder's happy hour to keep it very casual.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
And they all brought one or two founders. And so that second one I did, it grew to about 15 founders. And we just literally had beers. I'm like, this is so much fun. Let's do it one more time. So we did it another time next month and then 30 founders came out to that. And then just slowly... Very organically, we continue to grow from 30 to 35. And we just did our biggest one. I did my seventh one just last week. Amazon, AWS Startups, and Ripple Ventures co-hosted with me alongside Boast, Boast AI. They're everywhere in Vancouver, if you're based in Vancouver. And then the previous founder of BC Jobs, he was one who sold the company. He also helped co-host it. So... Between me and three co-hosts, we brought 65 founders together in a room, all very, you know, kind of scaling up founders, founders between six to eight figures, recently raised money, maybe seed to, between seed to series A in terms of size. And we just had breakfast, very non-extractional. So no one's hard selling anybody. Everyone are... Everyone's busy thinking about scale, so people,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
and systems.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Right.

Simon:
Exactly what we talked about. And that's all the conversation. And I, I love that because founders of all people, they get sold to the most out of anyone that you can think of. They're being sold to by their co-founder. They're being sold to by their directors, their managers. They get sold to by their full-time employees, their contractors. They get sold to by their lawyer, their accountant, their bookkeeper, their... their spouse, their kids, their dog sometimes. They get sold to by everybody because they're the ones who hold the final check and have the final say. And so when founders want to come out to events, the last thing that they want is to be sold to by someone or be pitched to by someone. They can

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
sniff a pitch from a mile away. And

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
so as a founder myself, I found it very difficult to find myself in a room. Like I could never connect with other networking events because any event that I would go to... in the city, especially in the city like Vancouver, just seemed so extractive. Everyone is trying to sell something. And so when I started out this out, it just was very casual founders having drinks with other founders and that philosophy stayed with me. I always make sure to tell people before I start the event, just, you know, we're here to brainstorm. And I tell everybody, and like curation is very important. Curating

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
and making sure the right founders are coming into the room. Founders that just started their startup three months ago, probably not the best founders to bring to that room because they're so brand new. They're

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
still in that product market fit and selling stage. They might not be hard sleazy salespeople by any means, but they're still going to want to push their story because they haven't gotten through that growth phase yet. So,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
And I think

Simon:
yeah.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
as business owners, we have to be so mindful of know your audience because you

Simon:
Yeah,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
see people

Simon:
yes.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
that really get it wrong and it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for everyone in the space. And so, what am I kind of alluding to? So you go to an event like that, and really it's about collaborating and discussing and brainstorming and building connections. And you're not gonna, the chance of you leaving with saying like, oh, I just made $10,000. like you shouldn't, that's not what it was for. And so many people are like, well, what do we sell? What do we grow? What do we do? And so knowing the objective of the different types of events and the power of the proximity and the connection and the community in that room is so different than, hey, I'm gonna go to a conference and I'm gonna get a booth and I'm gonna sell to people. It's two very different things. But the discomfort, I recently reached out to, I worked with a business owner for a couple of years. on a project, it was a startup, newer startup, and working through some of the pieces. And hadn't really connected in a while. And I reached out on more of a social level. We had built a connection over a couple of years. And so I reached out more of kind of like, hey, how's it going? Like, what's going on? Immediate sell. Oh my goodness, I have to give you the update and this and that, and it's going, this and I need to update you on this feature and that feature. And I was like, whoa. It's that moment, it's the same, maybe it's a family member or someone that you see, it's like you ask them, oh the weather's nice today and they immediately jump into the cell on the business. And so there's this piece of, obviously driven by passion and we all want our businesses to succeed, but sometimes you actually are pushing away the right... opportunities in terms of mentorship, development, community connection because we're so focused on one piece of the business and almost forget the power of the second piece of that community and connection.

Simon:
There's so many things I want to respond to. You said so many nuggets of gold there.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Thanks for watching!

Simon:
I'll respond to a couple of pieces. I'll add on to it actually.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Okay.

Simon:
So true. Number one, community I think is the biggest, it's gonna be your biggest driver. For anyone listening that owns a business, community is gonna be your biggest lever that you can pull in 2023 and 2024. Because performance marketing, third party cookie tracking is So ads are not going to be as effective. And with the growth of AI technology right now, SEO is kind of uncertain. We don't know where Google is going to go with their new update. Is AI-generated content going to even work anymore, or is it going to punish you? SEO and PPC is a little bit uncertain. But

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
community is where it's at. It's real engagement. No number of likes and no number of comments on your posts on social media is ever gonna amount to anything. It's good for branding, but you're not actually having conversations. But if you can do well in community, you can actually build real conversations. And to your second point of just kind of founders being so extractive and pitching you right away, I always take it back to dating. Like if you're

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
a first time dater, you've never dated before and you're dating for the first time, When you go to meet new girls or guys that you're interested in, probably the first thing you're going to do is try to sell yourself. You can be like, I do this, I do that. I'm a great this, I'm a great that. And you're going to be talking about yourself a lot, not knowing that the more you ask about other people and you're interested in other people, that actually makes them more attracted to you because you're showing genuine interest in them.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
Imagine this. For a second, you go to a date, first time date with someone, and all you're doing is, hey, Tiffany, nice to meet you, my name is Simon. I've dated six girls in the past. I'm a fantastic cook, by the way. And I'll tell you, if we start dating, I'm gonna make sure that I'll have tea ready in the morning. My last girlfriend, I increased her happiness by 50%. And

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Hahaha

Simon:
I guarantee you, if we date, like, I will make you the happiest person ever. I'll increase your, like, if you're just talking about yourself and what you can bring to the table right away, it just sounds like you're so desperate kind of.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
You can smell it, right?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yes.

Simon:
Versus if I, you know, when we go on our first date and I'm like, what do you do for work, like, and what do you do? What are your hobbies? You've always lived in Vancouver. Have you, were you born and raised in Vancouver? And you're like more curious about the person, not pitching. Maybe,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
just maybe, you might want to go on a second date with me or a third date. But if I'm constantly pitching myself, that second date is nowhere to be found.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
So I always tell, I always equate business with kind of dating, especially networking with dating, because at the end of the day, it's all about relationships. Business is a people-to-people business.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
It's a relationship that you have to build with other people, right? It has nothing to do with your social media handles. It has nothing to do with your following, your online following. It is the interactions that you have with other people. And so I think Vancouver, of many cities that I've been to, I've seen events in New York, San Francisco, LA, other cities seem to get it. They understand. Vancouver, we just don't have enough of this.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Hmm.

Simon:
And especially for the early stage founders, we don't have the ecosystem to train founders to... to network in a non-extractive manner. So 100% agree with you.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah, it's interesting. It's, it's the same thing as if you were on that first date and you start talking about wedding venues, you scare people off. Like even if that

Simon:
Yeah.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
person thinks that might be, there's still that, you know, it's like this, even if it everything is amazing, and that person is who you may end up marrying.

Simon:
It could be. Could be.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
You may have just completely scared them off because the intensity in which you started with was like, whoa,

Simon:
Like,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
it's

Simon:
just calm down.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Exactly,

Simon:
You know?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
exactly. Because, I mean, you hear those, you know, there's, to equate it to dating, there are people who go and get married three weeks in, but it's not, and so, but how many people could have potentially gotten married and got scared off because someone just like, you know, cranked up the intensity. It's, networking events, I feel like there's, you know, a couple of different, you know, you talk about the right people in the room, we've all been to a bad networking event of some kind where you get there and you're like, well... Everyone's just in a different part of their journey. They're in a completely different industry. They're in a completely different space in their journey. And there's always different connections to be made. But in terms of learning from each other and whatnot, I was watching a video recently someone shared and MrBeast, obviously a big YouTuber, every time we talked about him, and he was talking about how when he started, he started with this group of people and they were all working on their videos together and they would, you know, get online together and analyze what each other was doing so that they could learn from each other. You know, if everyone did one thing and so this video didn't do well and that video didn't do well and this one, okay, well what was different about the one that did do well? And just being able to connect with other people made it so that they could test things faster, they could progress faster, they could learn from each other. And it's, I think, such a valuable resource. So often people are like, well, I don't want to share what I'm doing. I don't want to and so it's getting into the right spaces where you're sharing people who can add value to each other and Not you know it trusted space very important

Simon:
Exactly. I actually one of the other communities that are run. I run a LinkedIn creators community. We meet once a month

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
over zoom We usually get about 20 to 30 our biggest one. We had about 35 people come out and Everyone has a strong LinkedIn presence.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
So You know you can imagine anywhere between 30 to upwards of 150 likes per post and they post very regularly and These guys get it You can't do it on your own.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
You can't understand everything on your own. And if you're not engaging with your audience, then you're not building a real following. So it's a way for us to meet once a month, not just through the comments,

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
because as important as the comments are, and you know, the social media platform is all about the engagement and the interactions.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah,

Simon:
The

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
cool.

Simon:
more interactions you get, the more it gets pushed to more people. And so you get a greater reach. But the real connections matters way more. And so I started this in February. So it's been what half a year now, six months now. We meet once a month. We started with literally again, six, seven people in a room in a virtual room. And then it grew to 12 and then 15, 20, some weeks better than others. But our most recent one, we had about 21. And now we're getting new like different moderators. We break out everyone into smaller groups because you can imagine 20 people in a Zoom room.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
You're going to start maybe talking over each other. So we created structures where you split up into small groups of four. So we

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Right.

Simon:
call it breakout sessions. And then we come back to the big room and we do that once a month. And to your point, yeah, so important to have like whatever you're doing. Find a community.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
There's always going to be a community for you. I

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
have a community for founders, a community for LinkedIn creators. And if you're a bookkeeper, maybe. Or like an accountant, maybe you there's gonna be groups for you there as well, right? There's

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
always gonna be a group for you Find that community and be involved in it. And if not create it if there's nothing out there create it yourself

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah, I think there's so much value there. Now, I have a couple questions. So LinkedIn for me is full of two types of people. People from my previous life in corporate that I worked with or were customers, and people who were trying to sell me something. My LinkedIn inbox is nothing but cold DMs, and so I... just I rarely open the platform. So we schedule to LinkedIn based on like, hey, we're running content elsewhere and LinkedIn is a box in our social media scheduler. So why not? We filter out, I would say about half of what we do elsewhere to keep it on the more professional, less of the like kind of more typical Instagram like engagement type posts, more professional, less emojis, if you will. So how can someone, and if I think of some of our client base who we've talked to about LinkedIn and people are like, eh, it's just not for me, how do you go from really what feels like just no value there? I'm not providing value, people are not providing value, they're just trying to sell me something. How do you make that transition to providing the right type of content on LinkedIn where you're connecting with people and getting engagement? What was that shift?

Simon:
Um, it yeah, it really depends on who do you want to talk to and where are they at? So are you like let me ask you are you using Instagram? What's your what's your number one channel right now?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Facebook, YouTube.

Simon:
Okay, why Facebook?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Um, you know, I think that the really the communities, the groups on Facebook is where we connect with the most people for sure.

Simon:
Okay, okay, and you're like having you're creating content on Facebook and you're also having real conversations with people, right? Okay, and you're building a following then that's your channel then that's your channel you don't have to think about LinkedIn works for me Because I have real conversations with real people and that's grown my following and that's Most of the people that I want to talk to you because I want to talk to founders and see sweet see sweets They're all on LinkedIn and those conversations, my conversations is more geared towards business and marketing, that's LinkedIn. And so for me, I found a lot of value and I have a lot of real conversations with people. That's why I stay on LinkedIn and I don't go on Facebook and Instagram. Not because I don't think it's going to work, but if something is working for you, why not just keep diving into it?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Right.

Simon:
If it's not working for you, then try five different platforms until you see the one that shows the most benefit. then you go all in deep into this one. I would say this though, you're right. There are a lot of cold messages on LinkedIn, but over time when you build enough value, like my post regularly will get between 90 to 140 organic likes, but it's taken 10 months to get there. I've had to start so many conversations in order to build that. that following, I had to be on LinkedIn religiously. Like nothing that's worth it in life comes for free. And nothing comes immediately in a snap of a finger. It took 10 months to grow this. I remember the first three, four months, I'll probably get one or 2000 eyeballs, maybe per month. And each post that I posted had seven, eight likes, and it's very discouraging, but I just kept going. I kept giving. I kept liking and engaging on other people's content. And just to give you some numbers because everyone wants to know what is the secret? There is

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
no secret, but I would probably have to like and engage on 10 people for one person to even think about engaging back. So in order for me to grow to... so now let's do the numbers, let's do the math a little bit. In order for me to grow to 90 likes per post, I had to be liking 900 different people's content. per week. And so I just kind of kept these numbers. Obviously as my profile grew, that number became smaller and smaller. I would have to like three for every one like. If I'm very lucky, you know, that's very lucky. But usually it's like every four likes I give, I'll get one like back kind of thing. So in life, in business, in anything, there is no such thing as take and not give. You got to give first.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Absolutely.

Simon:
Keep having a giving mindset and then you will get back. And so whether your platform is Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram, there's gonna be real people in every single one of the platforms. There is no one size fit all or like a secret to

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
social media. Choose the platform that you like the most and just go all in and provide as much value as for other people. Help support other people's profile and maybe you'll get support back. You cannot expect, you cannot expect. I have friends that I've known for many, many years. When I post they never support my stuff And I don't I don't blame them. Everyone's busy, right? Everyone hasn't everyone nowadays has a full-time job and a side hustle So between those 10 11 hours and some of them have kids and family that they had to meet Why would they want to waste their time to come go out of their day to support and like simon's post? Like what did it get out of me?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
I understand you can't you can't Not everyone's going to support you, but you find the people that support you and you continue to give back all the time consistently. Always be there for them, and they might be there for you as well.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah, I think that's so it's a especially when people are starting out and they expect those who they know, whether it's, you know, family or close friends or whatever. And I would say, you know, the more common story, we've been recording the podcast for three years or three seasons. And so, you know, it's the more common story is those in my in my actual life that I knew before don't necessarily support or don't understand. But building those connections, building those groups that you're talking about, building that community, and whatnot, there's so much power there. And realizing that a lot of the people in your own life don't necessarily understand what you're really trying to do.

Simon:
Yeah, I don't know what it is. I think it's like human, it might be human nature. And maybe just like I said, maybe just everyone's just busy, but I know there are some people that are huge, huge supporters of me in person, but online, never. They're never there online. Does that make them a bad person? Does that mean that they don't support you, but they're always supporting you in person? That just might not be their thing.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
Their thing is not supporting you online. Doesn't mean that they're not supporting you. So once you separate yourself, find people that do support you online and focus on those people. Don't focus on all your third cousin, your second cousin or your niece that doesn't like your stuff and be like, oh, they're not supporting me. And they're a bad friend or a bad family member. Like they're not. No, that's just not how they support you.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Great.

Simon:
Right? Everyone's support will, is going to support you in a different way. And in the beginning, I used to feel so, I always felt like maybe the people around me didn't support me. I'm like, why are you not supporting me? I've known you for nine years, 10 years. And then I kind of step back a little bit and then ask, when have I ever been there for them?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
If you're always supporting them, week in and week out, and they never support you, that is one thing. Okay, maybe that person doesn't deserve your time, and so stop supporting them, right? Early on, I was telling you I was probably engaging on hundreds of accounts per day to build up my engagement and my following. And there were so many people that I supported for months, every single time being there for every single one of their posts. always supporting them and building them up and encouraging them and they never once Supported me back Then I started to realize some people like you can give up to a certain point but at some point you need to protect your own time

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
and not support the people that just will never support you and There's many reasons for them to not support you right there. They have a million different reasons And you don't have to waste time thinking about what the reasons are because at the end of the day, they're not supporting you They're not supporting you Just move on.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
that lesson really applies to so many parts of business, where whether it's a provider, a service provider, that you're paying and paying and paying and not getting a result, and at one point you have to say, hey,

Simon:
Yeah.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
I am not getting the value for my money, and so I need to make a change, and that person might be super nice, they might have been a provider for a really long time, but if you're not getting the value for money, so whatever, whether what you're paying in is time, or dollars, or... mentorship or you know all of these different things. You know whether it's people on your team or your customers or your community at the end of the day I think it's just being mindful that you know everyone. whether you're a billionaire or whether you have no money, everyone still has 24 hours in a day and being mindful of what you're investing into. Because the strategic decision to invest

Simon:
Yes.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
in engagement, to say, hey, I'm going to focus on LinkedIn in your case, and I'm gonna do this, and I have, you have a plan and a strategy, and there's a reason that you're building that community and whatnot, that's a decision. And so being strategic with that just to say, hey, I'm just going out here and I'm just doing a couple things willy-nilly and spending time on so many and not that doesn't work as a business owner. You know, you've got 24 hours and you've got to be have a plan.

Simon:
Exactly. No, love that.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yes.

Simon:
Love that. Same thing for a personal life too, right? You know, you have a girlfriend or a wife or whatever or husband boyfriend and You're investing a lot of time and you think about the relationship, but they don't Maybe you gotta have a conversation about

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
that. You don't have to be upset about it You know Everyone at the end of the day is selfish. Everyone has their own reasons of being Doesn't mean that they don't care or love you or support you. They just have their own way If you're okay with the way that they love you, then that's gonna work. But if you're not okay, you don't have to hold that in because that thing that you're holding in your heart that you're not saying is just gonna grow over time. It's like black mold in your heart.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Great.

Simon:
And then over time, it's just gonna hurt your relationship more. Whether it's a personal relationship, a romantic one or a business one, right?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
Speak your mind and surround yourself with people that you want to be surrounded with.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yes, so much value. So what's that one tangible tip a business owner, whether that is on the marketing side, the different community side, what is that one tangible tip that a business owner can implement in their business right away?

Simon:
Yeah, especially for service-based businesses where it's hugely based on relationships. I would say start a podcast is a great way to start. If you don't start one, join as a guest on as many podcasts as possible. Learn

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
how to tell your story, right?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
And learn how to build relationships in a non-transactional way because, you know, in a case like this... you're not paying me for this, not paying you for this, it's just a conversation. It's a 40

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
minute out of my day, 40 minute out of your day. And

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
it's an exchange of time, right?

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
So I would say that podcasting is huge and create content. Just be loud, be loud online, whether that's on Facebook, LinkedIn or whatever.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Right.

Simon:
So that's number one. And then second, as you know, I'm gonna say this, just community. join other communities or create one yourself and just be very active IRL in real life. Cause people, 2023 and 2024, people are craving for that authentic, authentic relationship and that in-person connection. So I would say those two.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah, and I think to add to that for me, if you go to some kind of networking type event and it doesn't feel good, that doesn't mean that networking events don't feel good, but to try and find the right people for you. Because I think that one thing I've learned in my own journey is that was much like you shared, it was something I didn't. necessarily reach out for when I started was, you know, these in real life networking community type events, I'm definitely more introverted. And that wasn't something. And, but what I have learned is that the right people in a community, the right space are things that I look so forward to those connections and building those pieces. And so if, you know, if you're, if you're thinking, Oh, I have to go to that, that lunch again, and it, you know, you're feeling like it just, you just don't enjoy it. You don't want to go, you know, maybe try a different lunch versus. is deciding you just don't want to go to lunch at all.

Simon:
Yeah, find a group that is hosted by an introvert, by the way. I'm introverted

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mmm.

Simon:
myself.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Yeah.

Simon:
So when I run events, I love to do icebreakers and I love breaking people out into smaller groups. Cause I understand as an introvert myself, it's very hard for me to stand out in a very large crowd cause I don't like to step over people's toes. I

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
don't like to interrupt people. And so having some, I always like to separate, you know, my groups of 30 into smaller groups of four or five. It makes it so much easier to talk. So find groups that are hosted by introverts. That's usually very, very good. And I will leave with one last thing. I know we're up on time. When you ask for something, ask to give, don't ask to sell.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Hmm, yes.

Simon:
Meaning if you're if you're gonna ask for something like Tiffany Just let me know cuz you're doesn't ask. Let me know message me Anytime you need help with anything podcasting related Happy I'm here for you. I can always happy to brainstorm and chat So I'm asking for your time, but only if I can support you versus Hey, Tiffany message me if you if you need help with podcasting I have a great, fantastic agency. I own an agency and I've been running it for five years and we're like one of the best agencies out there. Just message me anytime and happy to help. It's a very different ask.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Very different.

Simon:
Ask to help.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Mm-hmm.

Simon:
Ask to give, don't ask to sell.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Love that. So powerful. Okay, Simon, where can people connect with you if they wanna check out your podcasts, they wanna check you out on LinkedIn? Obviously we'll drop the LinkedIn link in the description, but is that the best pace for them to find you and connect with you?

Simon:
Yeah, just like make it easy. Have one link, just my LinkedIn, Simon Chow, C-H-O-U. I also have a little red chili pepper that has to do with my podcast. And if you go on my LinkedIn, you'll see. But yeah, connect with me on there. I'm really active.

Tiffany-Ann Bottcher:
Awesome, well we'll have to go find out all about that chili pepper. Thank you so much for being here, really appreciate it.

Simon:
Thank you so much.